tont mute any in the gop. republicans rethinking the no new taxes pledge. will they turn their backs on norquist to save america? tonight i'll ask him himself if he's losing the fight. willie nelson is back on the road. how many girls has he loved before? >> the reason divorces are so expensive is they're worth it. >> the hits am keep on coming for willie nelson and i don't mean his songs.

>> i he probably did, i he probably did. >> a very entertaining interview. this is piers morgan tonight. good evening. the big story tonight teetering on the edge of the fiscal cliff about 36 days to go until fax increases kick in. the white house and congress are playing a high stakes game of let's make a deal. president obama spoke with john boehner this weekend and expressed confidence the deal can't be reached before the deadline. that's what most americans want. in the the latest poll. >> when you're $16 trillion in debt, the only pledge we should make to each other is to avoid. >> you signed it 20 years ago,

18 years ago is for that congress. the world has changed. >> joining me now is the man in the middle of this storm, grover norquist. grover, welcome to you. >> good to be with you. >> you can't comply on the bounty the mutiny has begun: >> it's funny to watch a senator or congressman who got himself elected by promising the citizen of his state that he would go to washington to reform government and not to pay taxes. when the going gets rough he wanted to debt ceiling increase. the same cast of chakts are turns in the homework for the second tyne two years later and there's not a snowball rolling.

the good news is the people that gave a commitment to the american voters. for four years president obama has not reined in spending. all he did is demand $1.6 trillion of tax increase so he can spend more money, not reining in spending. we need focus on spending problems because that's the problem we have. >> warren buffett wrote this fascinating piece in the "new york times" today. you're familiar with it today. suppose they come to you with an investment idea. i'm in it. i think you should be, too. would your reply be this? it depends on what my tax rate is on the gain we're going to make.

if the tax isn't too high, i'd rather leave the money in my savings account. war len buff set says only in norquist imagine kwis. why are you so concerned about protecting the vast wealth of america's small percentage of increasingly rich people? why do you care? >> i'm in favor of not raising taxes on all the american people and as you know the american people quite rightly understand that politicians who say i tax the rich have not finished the sentence.

the sentence runs i'm going to tax the rich first and then i'm coming for the middle class. obama said he would tax people na mate that make over $250,000 a year. in 2012 he changed the promise. he didn't proposition people he won't raise taxes on you if you make less than $200,000. the new promise and repeated ever since. my plan is if you make less than $200,000 i won't race your income taxes next year. so he's only promming not to raise income taxes. >> but grover only you believe there has to be really small absolute pledge for life about these kind of things. surely the nature of the modern world is very fast-moving and changing a lot. america clearly has huge economic problems heading for another fiscal cliff.

everyone laughing at you you from afar. the american public sick and tired of all the games going on. there you are, a very bright guy still saying a pledge is a pledge is a pledge. it cannot be broken when many of your own parties are saying, you know what? it doesn't make sense to just have this irresolute position anymore. >> two nings. the pledge is not for life, but everybody who signed the pledge including peter king who tried to weasel out of it, shame on him as the new york sun said today. i hope his wife understands the commitments last a little longer than two years or something. the commitment from the pledge -- >> whoa, whoa. hang on. that was a bit below the belt, grover. >> if you think a commitment is not for as long as you make it for, the commitment for the pledge as peter king well knows when he signed it is that as long as you're in congress you won't rain in spending and reform government and rein is taxes. it's only as long as you're in the house or senate. if he stayed too long, that's

his problem. you don't tell the bank, oh, the mortgage wasn't that a long time ago? if you make a commitment, you keep it. >> this pledge was first signed in 1986. >> by some people. of course, every two years people often re-sign it. they make statements on it. this is one of the people having doubts just two years ago made a public letter saying he would never support a deal that had any tax increases, only revenues stemming from economic growth and not tax increases. that was two years ago, and it was a public statement that he made to the people of his state. >> here's my problem. here's my problem. going back to warren buffett's piece and you have the ridiculous position and the wealthiest guy in america and one of the greatest investors in history demanding to be taxable. what he says is interesting, i think. between 1951 and 1954 when capital gains was 25% and marginal rates 91% in extreme

cases, i he sold securities and did pretty well. in the years from '56 to '59 the top marginal rate was a lofty 70%. it's at 27.5%. i was managing funds for investors then. never did anybody mention taxes a reason to forego investment. under the burdensome rates moreover both unemployment and the gross domestic product increased at a rapid clip. the middle class and the rich alike gained ground. over these extended periods of time in his lifetime when he's been a very successful investor he saw no link between increasing capital gains taxes or income taxes on unemployment

or gdp or any of the trigger you believe would be deflated by raising such taxes. >> several things. he misses several points. his article -- he needs a better ghostwriter. the suggestion that the people had -- >> that's a really good piece. >> except it's factually incorrect. he talks about -- he says we ought to get back to 19.5% of gdp. that's where we were with reagan tax rates and that's where we were with lower marginal tax rates and with reasonable economic growth. we have revenues of 18.5% of

gdp. you don't get there by raising taxes but through economic growth. again, growth is rather important and it's what we ought to be rather than raising taxes. if the economy grew at 4% instead of 2% a year for one decade. the federal government would net $5 trillion. that would pay down all of the debt that obama's accumulated in the first four years. if we had grown at reagan rates of growth instead of obama rates of growth, 11 million americans would be at work today who are out of work. that's how you do it with the most regulations. >> what if we carried along the bush rate of growth of the eight years before bk? >> well, there were three periods of growth or low growth during the bush years. he enlded president bush handing president obama the greatest financial hospital past of most people's living memory. the idea that show the republican economic policies have been this wonder yus success story going back the last three decades is poppycock. >> taxes are not the only policy. when he cut marginal tax rates on gains and dividends from 2002, there was four years of strong economic growth from '03 to '07. what you had was fannie mae and freddie mac making loans they shouldn't have. the federal government mandated

loans be made that ought not to be made. there was a financial collapse. it wasn't because tax rates were too low. it was because financial institutions were making bad loans and selling to fannie and freddie and you had a collapse. free market economists warn about this for a decade, and it was bush should have focused on that instead of being governor of baghdad for six years. it would have been more important to focus on fannie and freddie. that wasn't his tax policy. you can have financial problems from printing too much money and inflation under carter, not just high tax rates but inflation. if buffet goes back and looks at how the kennedy years did after the marginal tax rate cuts and the reagan years, he'd understand that economic growth -- you know, he says he made a lot of money selling bonds. the question is how many money the people who invested in those bonds made, we need economic growth and not higher taxes. if the government taking a dollar aaway, that dollar is not available to be invested. the return on that dollar is zero. for buffet to not understand if you take money out of the economy it's gone is a little bit odd. he's willing to write it. if he wants to write a check, he should write a check and shut up about what everyone else should

do. >> the richest guy in america things he should make more taxes. >> then do so. >> fwri in policies that make all people do that. grover as always combative fun and good to talk with you. a man arguing republicans shouldn't buckle on it. he ran for president himself but the author of american patriots joined me now. senator, how are you? >> i'm doing great, piers, how are you? >> grover norquist is a great character and he's led the way

in this no tax pledge for a long time now. you're beginning to see it fracturing at the edges, senior republicans coming out and saying, you know, we may have to compromise on this a bit. what do you think? >> well, i think what you heard grover say and others have said is we need more revenues. the ideas of getting up to 18.5% of of gdp is the historical average is a good target to look for. there's no question we're at about 15% to 16% right now. revenues are down. the reason the revenues are down is principal because of growth. we collected 18 pts 5% of gdp and more with the current tax rates when we had higher growth. the campus republicans made from the very beginning is let's focus on the revenue and not so much on the rates and i would say that republicans are flexible in looking at reforms the tack code. there are things we can do that may encourage growth and raise more revenues. there may be things that raise more revenues to eliminate certain deductions. i think there is flexibility to raise revenues, to get back to that 18% of gdp. remember, we're at almost 25% of gdp to spending. much higher than the norm than taxes are below the normal. so the biggest problem created the deficit that we have, the fiscal cliff that we're falling over is on spending. so this preoccupation with talking about taxes is talking

about the smaller of the two problems that are causing the deficit. >> right. when you have a negotiation that's going on although the moment, 72% of americans according to the cnn poll believe obama and the gop should compromise to get thing off a cliff. we have to give and we see the difference ideologically, but in all kinds of trixie deductions and so on and a flat income tax increase on wealthy americans. what's the ideological difference. wealthier people pay a little more tax.

>> it's not a ideological difference. what can raise the money most efficiently and effectively to create economic growth that's going to create jobs for people. one of the things i talked about during the campaign was cutting the corporate tax for manufacturing. you want to create jobs that are here in america that are going to create good-paying jobs that create things that people will consume here in it country. let's do something to get this manufacturing economy revved up and going. it's picked up a little bit with lower energy prices. we can do things in the tax code to create jobs here and get some of that wealth, invest it in manufacturing plants facilities, which are construction jobs and the manufacturing jobs after that. we had something -- we're doing something in my organization called patriot voices asking people to go to websites, patriotvoices.com and sign up to take a pledge to buy made in america for christmas. it's hard to find things at some stores made in america. this is a problem that i think a lot of people see and can we do something in the tax code to create more incentives for people to manufacture in america to create a stronger economy?

the answer is yes and we should be. >> let's be sensitive to a news conference you hosted today on something close to your heart, your daughter bella and wife is there as well tell me what that was about. >> it's on the convention for rights of people with disabilities, which sounds like a wonderful thing. the problem is there's a provision in this international law which we would be adopting if the senate ratifies this that puts the state in the position of determines what is in the best interest of a disabled child. as the father of a little girl if you look up the medical kwings of her condition says it's incompatible with life, i hesitate to think what nose in government and in charge would think how our daughter should be treated and what medical treatment should be available to her if her diagnosis is incompatible with life. so this would be something unprecedented in american law to

give the state the ultimate authority as to what is in the best interest of your child historically the united states has been clear. parents, unless they're unfit for some reason, get that decision. this would change under this convention, and that's why karen and i stood forward today aalong with mike lee from utah and said we have to oppose this. harry reid has decided to call this up on wednesday. if people would go to our website, patriotvoices.com you can learn more about it and hopefully communicate with your member in koj to let them know this is not something right for you and your family. >> there's one word with this that you struggled in the past when i asked these things. there was a hint today you may run again in 2016. yes or no? >> the hint is would you consider running? i'm open to the possibility, but we're a long way. i'm focused on trying to stay involved in the fray and make sure we do the right thing on capitol hill right now and also that this debate in the

republican party about what the future of the party and where we goo we're active and engaged to make sure we stand up to america's founding principles. >> not a no. senator, good to talk to you. >> thank you, piers. always a pleasure. >> when we come back reaction to rick santorum and grover norquist. we go toe to toe on that and the return of chris christie. >> announcer: 'tis the season of more-- more shopping, more dining out...

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did you think everything would change after election day and it would be sunshine and roses for democrats and republicans? think again. there's plenty to disagree about, from the fiscal cliff to chris yisy. joining me now to battle it out and the republican strategiest ali stewart. let me start with you. i heard from grover norquist and from rick santorum tonight and they all seem ton wrestling now with the possibility that this pledge that's really held them all to ransom for so long on

income tax rises in particular may just have to be all thorred in how they deal with that. you know what? forget all the pledges before this election has happened. we got beaten again and beaten badly. it's time to rethink, regroup, and be open to new ideas. >> well, the fact of the matter is this was a pledge that a lot of people that i've worked for made to their constituents. we don't have a problem in washington with taxing. we have a problem as senator with overspending. i talked with my congressman today, and he said for argument sake we give the president every single tax increase he wants. every single one of of them on the wealthiest americans and on all american. if we give them all those we spend a trillion dollars more every year than we take in. we can't sustain that and need entitlement reform. >> this is the point i was

trying to make, on both sides of the divide there has to be compromise. the compromise republicans have to make is surely on raising revenue. why are they some about this pledge on income tax in particular. they're going for dodging deductions and so on. it's all same thing about raising revenue tli taxing the wealthier americans a little bit more, isn't it? >> it's not an either/or proposition. you can't say can we get there only by raising revenue? no, you can't. can you get there only by cutting spending? no you probably can't. when you look at revenue, there's two ways to get revenue one of which you can't control and one you have less control over. the one you have less control over is the right at which the economy grows and we can put in place some policies that may speed that up, but you don't have as much control as you have

over whether or not you raise revenue through taxation. that has to be part of this negotiation, this has to be part of any deal that you come up with. so when people -- i've always thought this this pledge was the most outrageous thing i've heard of in my life. the idea that you would say that i'm going to sign something today not knowing what may come to this country five years, ten years down the road if i should stay in the congress or in the senate for that long, and i will never change based on the conditions that moment. that's not good governance and being a full-fledged politician. that is shackling yourself to a position before you know how things will play out. i think that is an extraordinary thing that they ever did, and

i'm very encouraged by the fact that at least some republicans are coming around to the idea that they can no longer sustain that position. >> all right. alice, just move gears here to the republican party and its future. already a lot of buzz this week about potential candidates running in 2016. we've seen marco rubio buzz and the jeb bush buzz, a lot of buzz around chris christie whose approval ratings in new jersey are over 77% this week. highest since he took over there. clearly a wrestle going on now for who is going to be top jockey come the next race. what do you think? >> i think chris christie did job number one. the fooirt priority is to make sure the people of your state are taken care of, and that involved working with the

federal government hand in hand and that included president obama and he's someone that people are talking about. as we learned in this election, we have to work with latinos and african-americans, so we've got a great bench in the gop and we have a lot to look forward to for 2016. >> charles is very, very quick, one answer please. who would you most fear by coming up against whoever the democrat candidate is in 2016? >> i'm not fearing anybody. i was so hoping that rick santorum was going to say he would run, because i would love to have him back in the race. that's column material. >> he'd have my vote. >> hopefully there will be column material, and that will be at the forefront of it. thank you for joining me. >> thanks, piers. >> thank you. >> coming up, the great american icon willie nelson. this is an interview you want to sit back in your slippers with a whiskey and enjoy. ♪ on the road again for. folks who save hundreds of dollars switching to geico sure are happy. how happy, ronny? happier than gallagher at a farmers' market. get happy. get geico.

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♪ on the road again just can't wait to get on the road again ♪ ♪ the life i love is making music with my friends ♪ ♪ i can't wait to get on the road again ♪ willie nelson won the

lifetime achievement award earlier this month and he tells his own extraordinary story called "roll me up and smoke me when i die." he joins me now. willie, i always wanted to meet you. >> same here. >> you're a great american icon. how do you feel about that? >> i don't think about that. i'm not sure what that means. i'd have to go look it up. >> you don't look in the mirror some mornings and think, i'm an icon? >> no, i don't think so i've done that. in the morning maybe i will now that i've been here, you know. >> i always imagine when you walk around, you must be one of those entertainers that everybody likes. >> well, i'm not sure -- there's the old saying of all the people who don't like me, just think of the millions who have never heard of me. >> you wrote a brilliant book, roll me up and smoke me when i die, musings from the road. what a hell of a journey it's been for you, isn't it? when you finished the book, what did you think of your life?

>> it was an easy book to write and writing down the highway and off the top of my head, i would throw a song in there. that's ball there is to this book. it's not heavy. >> it has a nice tone to it. what i meant is you're nearly 80 years old sxr an extraordinary career, incredible life, four wives and seven children and all sorts of fistfights and drinking and your well-known love of marijuana. what do you make of what's happened to you in those 80 years? >> well, you can't think about all of that at once.

it wouldn't be healthy, i don't think so. >> if you ended up in a happy place, are you a happy guy? >> i'm very happy right now. >> as happy as you've been? >> as happy as i hope to be right now. >> sinatra said to name you as his favorite singer. what a moment that must have been. >> that was. of course, he was a great singer and to have him say that is a great compliment. >> did you ever meet him? >> yes, i did. i played a couple of shows with him and we got to hang out a little bit a couple of times. >> did you go drinking together. >> we had a drink together. >> jack daniels? >> i didn't check the label. >> when you last did an interview with this show larry king was the host, and you admitted to him halfway through that you were actually high at the time. you had infused yourself with some marijuana. i have to ask the question. have you come similarly infused today? >> what's today? >> it could be any day in the life.

>> okay. >> did you make up this morning and have a quick you know? >> i probably did, if i remember. it's short-term stuff. >> do you take a lot of it? >> i think some people have more tolerance, you know, for smoking pot than others, and i know people that can take one hit and just go to sleep completely. other guys can smoke a lot. me and snoop smoke a lot. in every country we've been in i was in amsterdam one time. and snoop called me and wanted me to sing on his record, and he said i'm in amsterdam. we recorded a song together. >> you and snoop go to amsterdam, the mecca of dope really. you both have a load of it and write music together. >> now we can go to colorado. >> i think it's progress, and i think it's a great step forward and people are finally growing up and looking around the room and checking things out. it seems ridiculous i think for all the illegal drug dealers to make all the money and the gun buyers trading guns for dope and getting people killed all over the border when it's a simple thing on to legalize it, tax it and regulate it.

fortunately colorado and washington saw that. >> you planning a vacation there soon? >> maybe they'll have a coffee house. >> you can have the willie nelson coffee chain, couldn't you? >> why not. >> let's take a break and talk about politics with you. a lot of stuff going on in the middle east and the election. let's get your take on it. humans -- even when we cross our t's and dot our i's, we still run into problems. namely, other humans.

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if ♪ i'm sorry i was blind ♪ but you were always on my mind ♪ ♪ you were always on my mind

>> willie nelson's classic "always on my mind" is the author of two "new york times" best sellers. he's here with me along with the album. i love that song. >> "always on my mind." >> if you were consigned to a desert island and you could only listen to one song endlessly on a permanent replay, what would you choose? >> that would be really hard to say, because, you know, this is -- i just recorded a song with with dolly par ton that i think is the best song that -- she wrote it. i told her, i think this is the best song i've heard in a long time. >> you've always been political, but in an interesting way for a guy brought up in texas. you have i wouldn't say massively liberal views but certainly more liberal than most texans have from issues to guns and drugs and so on. let's go through a few of these. you started the tea pot party after you were arrested in november 2010. you said we should bring home

all of our troops from around the world and put them on their borders and legalize drugs and we will save thousands of lives and millions of dollars. do you really believe that could be a strategy that works? >> i do know it would work. it would be better than the one we had where there's still drugs available to anyone who wants them. i haven't had any problems buying major juan na anytime i can remember since i smoked it. so it's a shame to let other people, illegal drug dealers make all that money. i think eventually the grownup in the room will see it. >> when you look at the wars in iraq and afghanistan, what do

you think about america's position in the world, foreign policy in particular in the last 12 years or so? >> well, as you probably know i'm completely against war. i believe in self-defense. i believe if you get hit, you hit back. preemptive wars i don't believe in. i don't think they're necessary. i think wars are started to make money. they make money for the people who start a war over here and a war over there and sell bombs to both sides. >> when you look at what happens in the middle east in my lifetime i can remember, pretty much most of yours. do you see any hope there or any chance of actually peace in the middle east?

>> if you believe in the bible, it says two things. it says there will always be wars and rumors of wars. it also says for a thousand years somewhere in the future we have peace.

so hopefully those thousand years are coming up on us. >> were you pleased barack obama got re-elected? >> i'm glad he got re-elected. i think he has a lot of things in his favor, the things that he has ran on. the women all believe in the things that he's talking about. the blacks and the hispanics and the women and if you have those three things on your side, you're going to win. >> would you categorize -- are you a democrat? how would you describe yourself? >> i'm not really. what was his name? he said i wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me in there. >> groucho ma rx said that. >> did you vote this time? >> no. >> why not? >> i had all kinds of excuses. i was traveling and i had to do an absentee and i couldn't do it. there was really no excuse. i was just -- i didn't do it. >> you didn't feel passionately enough about early candidate? >> i felt like obama was going to win and he didn't needed one more vote. you grew up around guns. what do you make of the gun debate in america? >> well, you know, i've had you noted all my life, and, you know, when i was a young i had a b.b. gun and a shotgun and rifles and all those things and i went deer hunting and bear hunting. i have no problems at all with that. you know, i don't know what i would do with a gun that would

shoot 100 times. >> i find it just staggering that you can walk into stories in america and buy high-powered assault weapons on the internet get 6, 7,000 rounds of ammunition to blow up a movie theater if you want to. i agree with that and i think it should be more regulated and i think a lot of guns, there's no need for civilians to own those. those are for military. >> let's take another break and come back and talk music and also all the girls you've loved before, which could take some time, don't you think, if even half the stories i've heard are true? >> how many time you got? ookies. everything has to be just right. perfection is in the details. ♪ get to holiday fun faster with pillsbury cookie dough.

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♪ ♪ every time he drinks he thinks of her ♪ ♪ but every morning her memory fades away ♪ >> every time he drinks he thinks of her.

>> willie's son lucas nelson wrote it. with me now, talented guys your sons? >> yes. >> one of them's here, he did illustrations for the book? >> yes. >> are you proud of them? >> yes. >> you have seven children? >> yes. >> from four wives. your latest wife is the wife you've had for over 20 years.

is here also in the audience. was it practice the first three? >> is it what? >> practice, the first three marriages? >> i'm not sure practice is the right word. if i was practicing i should have learned. >> besides that, you're an incurable romantic. >> you can say that, yeah. >> do you think you've become a

better husband? >> well, yeah, i've had -- i think age has a lot to do with that, you get older, you get wiser, i guess. >> what have you learned about marriage? >> nothing. >> you had a great line about divorce? >> yeah, the reason divorces are so expensive is they're worth it. >> although you say that, you always stayed fond of your ex-s, am i right? >> oh, yeah. >> you always saw that as important? >> i do think it's important to -- especially if you have children which we do, you should stay friends and -- with your ex-wives. >> i always ask guests, how many times have you been properly in love. i can't think of a better person to ask, you actually sang to all the girls. if i was to ask you, how many would it be? >> will with, you said properly in love. >> yeah. >> we'll have to define properly. >> how would you define properly. >> well, i wouldn't have put it in there, but -- >> given that i've thrown it out there, go. >> i don't think there's anything improper. >> how many times have you been in love in your life. >> i don't know. today? >> i just signed 300 books a while ago, i met a lot of pretty girls. >> does your wife put up with this kind of hume summer she obviously does, she's laughing. >> well, yeah, she knows me. you.

>> get on extremely well. i can tell from the short time i spent with you both. is she the real love of your life, would you say? >> well, for the moment she is. >> she's quite relieved it may come to a crashing end. >> no, we get along fine. and it's unusual for people who are as independent as we both are. she's had a career of her own before we met. >> do you ever sing songs to her? >> do i ever sing songs to her? oh, i guess i have. i play a lot of records for her. >> are you a romantic at heart? >> 100%, yeah. >> if i was to say to you, come on, willie, tell me the greatest moment of your life, it can't involve women or children, what would you choose? >> the greatest moment of my life that doesn't involve children or women? >> yeah. >> if i could let you relive a moment, what would you choose? >> that's a difficult one. i've had a whole lot of really good moments. >> what's the a great life to you? >> every time i do a show, where i show up and they show up, and they come and clap and pay good money to hear me sing songs, it doesn't get any better than that. and the last show i had was too

far ago. i need another show. i'm ready to go play. >> i could talk to you all day. unfortunately, we've run out of time. the book say terrific read, very entertaining. roll me up and smoke me. it's been a real pleasure. >> the great willie nelson. we'll be right back. ♪... ♪... ♪...

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to end tonight's show i'd like to pay tribute to a man beloved by many around the world by being supremely evil. larry hagman. he played the baddest bad guy on tv, j.r. ewing. who else could have possibly delivered lines like these. >> revenge is never stupid, darling, it's the single best feeling in the world. a man has to learn to keep his tomatoes on top. >> larry was a brilliant actor

beneath the sinister smirk. died on friday in a dallas hospital with his co-stars and best friends, linda gray and patrick duffy by his side. i talked to them in june. listen to what larry told me about playing j.r. do you like being, for what you were, the most evil man on television? >> well, you know, i don't think i was an evil man, i was just like a texas businessman, that's all. >> yeah, evil. >> they keep bringing that up. >> i'm just doing what people do for business. >> you can't start distancing yourself from being evil. j.r. was wonderfully evil. constantly scheming and plotting, even against his own family. that's evil. did you like the reputation in. >> of course i do, it's wonderful. >> after that interview, larry hagman gave me a j.r. style hat